On a recent weekday at Black Coffee in historic Lakewood, a group of Black women gathered at noon for 45 minutes of coffee and conversation.
The topic? District Attorney Fani Willis and her potential disqualification from the Trump election interference trial.
Willis has been at the center of court proceedings to determine if her hiring of Nathan Wade, special prosecutor on the Trump case, and their consensual romantic relationship violated conflict of interest laws.
Judge Scott McAfee is expected to issue a decision by March 15. In the interim, Willis has been under continued scrutiny. A Georgia Senate committee and the U.S. House Judiciary Committee are investigating her actions and a new prosecutors oversight board could launch an investigation.
But it was the previous hearings that offered the kind of courtroom drama that gets people talking — in chats, in threads and in a cafe on Atlanta’s southeast side while sipping iced coffees named “The Dirty South” and “Light Skin Keisha.”
The conversation wasn’t focused solely on politics, the law, or even the outcome of the Willis proceedings – that will be whatever it will be. This conversation was salve for the myriad of feelings that have felt all too familiar for so many Black women watching the case unfold.
The attendees were an eclectic group: Andra Gillespie, political science professor at Emory University; Najja Parker, video and news correspondent for the AJC’s Black culture team; Nedra Rhone, AJC Lifestyle Columnist; Shanequa Gay, a multi-disciplinary artist and Sybil Vaughn, co-owner of The Circuit Salon.
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The discussion was both broad and deep, full of laughter and tinged with pain. It reflected the cultural understanding and the candor that are characteristic of conversations Black women have been having with friends and family since the motion to remove Willis from the case was first filed in January and since we watched Willis take the witness stand.
Nedra Rhone: When I initially heard that this was happening, my reaction was, oh, no. And then I was like, she should have known, she should have known this was gonna happen. Maybe she did know but I’m curious, what were your initial reactions when you heard about these proceedings?
Andra Gillespie: I have to admit, my first reaction when I heard this was, is it true? And from a strategy standpoint, one of the things that I think I would critique Fani Willis for is not addressing the issue immediately because it allowed people to develop their own narratives.
But now, we are where we are. We know that there is a relationship. My reaction basically was don’t squat where you eat. Why would you do that? You’re inviting additional scrutiny. The other side wants to throw everything they can at the wall and that includes attempting to put things out there in the news cycle that potential jurors are going to see and feel. So this just looks like a real unforced error, and I still feel that way. But I can feel that and also hold in tension that I don’t like how this case has unfolded and how people have gone after Fani Willis in a way that just makes me very uncomfortable.
Shanequa Gay: I agree. It was exciting to see a black woman at the precipice of this Trump trial leading to indictment. I was excited, elated that it was in Atlanta. And then hearing about possible indiscretion. I was also frustrated because it was yeah, you should know better. You should recognize that you have a lot of scrutiny and all eyes are on you because you are a Black woman in a position of leadership. As I watched the (hearing) unfold, it felt very much unjustified. But I cape for Fani because she handled herself beautifully.
Najja Parker: I saw the breaking news banner and my initial reaction was okay, here they go trying to attack our girl for doing something that she’s passionate about, for doing something huge, for doing something that everybody is talking about that others might be too afraid to pursue, so it immediately felt like an attack but as I delved deeper and continued to watch the AJC breaking news banner and realized there was some truth to this, I was like, she could have handled that a little differently knowing all of that was at risk. I actually had a lot of conflicting feelings.
Atlanta is also a character in this story. We are Black culture. When people think of Atlanta, they think of Black Hollywood. They think of Black excellence. So not only did it seem like a ding to her but to the city as well and all that we’re trying to accomplish.
Sybil Vaughn: I work in a hair salon so I’m around a lot of women and everybody kind of felt the same way we did like, why did she do that? So I started thinking and I was like she’s human. And you know, we all make mistakes. We all do things that we regret sometimes and sometimes our emotions and feelings kind of cloud our judgment on things.
Then I was angry at the system that will try to come in and attack her for being human and doing what she did. There’s this huge double standard. Trump does whatever he wants when he wants and he’s protected and nobody says a lot about that. But then you’re gonna come and attack this woman who’s just trying to do her job. She made a mistake. I get it, but I’m just giving her a little bit of grace.
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Gay: Even with that grace, even what you’re saying about the human aspect of her. She gave some tidbits of what was going on with her. At the top of her game, she received this district attorney opportunity but she said it was her loneliest period. She turned 50. She said even in the (hearing), I don’t date a lot. I don’t go out like that. When you are always working, working, working; doing, doing, doing, do you have access to someone to date? Loneliness can make you make you do things that have nothing to do with common sense. That have nothing to do with, is this the right thing to do? It’s just, I have access to a man and he’s kind of cute.
Gillespie: I still stand by, this was an unforced error. She should have known better. And even if Wade had been some combination of Thomas Dewey, Clarence Darrow with Thurgood Marshall wrapped into one, you don’t put him on the case. You can date him all you want but you don’t put him on the case. I think that that largely reflects a certain sensibility that we’re still getting used to about what workplace relationship dynamics look like. You can date laterally, but you can’t date vertically. And that’s true regardless of the gender of who is the boss in this situation.
The other thing that that bothers me is that it keeps on going on. I wasn’t surprised that the state senate would want to try to get their licks in on Fani Willis (On Wednesday, a senate panel heard from defense attorney Ashleigh Merchant who described her investigation into Willis’ relationship with Wade without the constraints of the courtroom.) The lawyers keep on trying to bring up information when they know they had scant information at the actual (hearing.) Strategically, I understand why you did it — I might think it’s shady and borderline unethical — but I’m not mad at you for taking your shot. You don’t know yet whether or not it worked. But this is not like a murder trial where all of a sudden we find out somebody else really did it. You’ve got to stop at this point. It just seems really gratuitous.
Credit: Natrice Miller/AJC
Credit: Natrice Miller/AJC
Gay: Can we talk about friendship betrayal? Really we are at this (proceeding) because of Terrence Bradley and Robin Yeartie (Bradley is Wade’s former law partner; Yeartie is a former friend and co-worker of Willis. Both were subpoenaed by defense attorneys to testify that Willis and Wade’s relationship began earlier than was documented in previous statements.) Like this exists because of those two really offering up information about their friends.
Rhone: I do feel there was something to be said for the ways in which these people made the decisions that they made to share what they shared with other people. I think that they also didn’t expect they were going to end up in the positions that they were in as a result of having shared that information.
Gay: Why is that always problematic, that we are always the first to offer up information about one another?
Vaughn: It’s always shocking when somebody does something like that but you know, as I get older, it’s like okay, certain things just don’t shock me a whole lot anymore. All of that is still going on in our communities and we just need to repair that.
Gillespie: The other part of this that I think was really galling was that at the end of the day, all those conversations really were was gossip. And it’s like, okay, so what’s the legal standard here? And is there a double standard if this were a different context? I’m not a lawyer, so I can’t speak to these issues directly, but again, what is the conflict of interest and how did this impede or muddy the investigation into the facts that are at hand in this particular case? I, as a layperson, have a hard time seeing that especially when this got very gratuitous and very personal. I’m like, wait a minute. This is all based on Ashleigh (Merchant) having a text conversation with Nathan Wade’s disgruntled partner, and him saying stuff that he was speculating on but clearly had no evidence of directly and I was just like, oh, wow, so you’re now going to trash this woman’s entire legacy based on rumors and gossip. That is what has made this super troubling.
Parker: It felt like something we were watching on TV, like some type of drama or scripted series.
Vaughn: Like a Tyler Perry show ...
Parker: It’s just the way the drama was unfolding and almost the messiness or something, feeling so gossipy even when they were asking the questions. They just kept trying to reframe the questions and asking the same thing over and over again. One of my favorite responses from Fani Willis was, you’re confused. I’m not the one on trial.
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Vaughn: I was thinking about a quote that I’m sure everybody’s heard from Malcolm X when he said “the most disrespected person in America is the Black woman.” That quote comes up in my head from time to time, and I think about how society in general views us — how we walk, what we wear, how we carry ourselves. I had a client yesterday. She’s an older woman, and she’s more, I guess, conservative. She was like, “Well, what I didn’t like about it was her demeanor and how she was leaning in the chair and making these remarks.” So she was criticizing her, but in my opinion, based on how society criticizes us — we’re too sassy, we talk too much, we’re too free — that was troubling to me.
Gillespie: I couldn’t help but think about Brett Kavanaugh’s Senate confirmation hearing where he gets righteous indignation and is mad, right? He can get away with that in a white man’s body. I’m not quite sure Fani Willis could get away with it. Later that night, kind of watching the news commentary, Black people received it differently. Even liberal white commentators were like, uh that might backfire. All of those stereotypes that have been around for years about us being sassy and angry, even though in this instance it is completely understandable why Fani Willis would be ticked off, I did wonder about the long-term effects.
Rhone: I felt we also saw the independent woman trope popping up. On one hand, she was kind of using it as a badge of honor. But to me, I was like but why do we always have to be stronger, better, I can do it on my own? There has to be a place where a Black woman can be a full person.
Gay: I think Fani does represent that kind of mythical creature that we create for Black women. But to be fair, she’s probably gotten to that position because she’s been a mythical creature, right? If you’re talking about her personality and want to know where she got it from, she is obviously a daddy’s girl. There’s a level of masculinity that shows up. This is not to discredit her, but her very being is an independent, Black woman. She said it upfront, a man is a companion, he is not a plan. That was my favorite quote. I wrote that down. But I really desire softness for her, because I didn’t see where she had the ability to have any. But Fani represents 21st-century leadership.
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Rhone: On Wednesday, Fani was qualified for reelection. I’m wondering, regardless of the decision, because we don’t know what Judge McAfee is going say, how do you think this will impact her moving forward in her career or even as district attorney? (Two challengers filed this week to run against Willis.)
Gay: I am concerned. I think they did create this (case) to impact her campaign, so I am concerned about the ability for her to be able to have a second re-elect.
Vaughn: I think that we, meaning Black Americans, will come out and support her and vote for her. Because we’re used to this kind of thing where people are trying to tear us down. I think it’s going to energize people to stay in her corner, understand her gift and talent and understand that she’s an effective attorney when it comes to prosecuting her cases. Some people will be tainted but I think overall we should and will rally behind her. Everybody is flawed and we’re all human. We have to understand that to see the greater good. What is she trying to accomplish?
Gillespie: I think a lot of people have forgotten up until this point, Fani Willis was the law and order candidate four years ago. She was the one that got support from conservative voters, because they were all really frustrated with Paul Howard for corruption issues or perceptions that he was lax on crime and was too hard on police. Willis was the more conservative candidate. I remember driving in Tuxedo Park on West Paces Ferry, you would see Fani Willis signs. I don’t know if you will see that many when I drive through that part of town anymore. That was probably inevitable because of her decision to prosecute Donald Trump, but I think it’s a question of whether or not this will end up compounding that effect. I suspect that electoral coalition is going to look a lot different this time than last time, probably with Black voters rallying around her in Fulton County to support her. I think the big question is going to be, “What about the moderate-to-slight right of center folks?” Some of these folks on the fence might think about her in a different sense, from a character and morals standpoint, because of the way that these hearings have played out.
Parker: I think we’ll see. I would like for us to be able to make room for mistakes or errors and it not taint our entire professional legacy. That feels unfair to me.
Rhone: If we consider this some sort of failure, no matter what happens, I would like to see a woman who looks like Fani Willis fail up in the way that I see so many less qualified, less talented people fail up all the time.
Responses have been edited for length and clarity.
